Last updated Jan 9, 2004

Q of the week:
"The Poop Eater"

In Cathy's MOST excellent answer (one of several *G*) she commented about living with dirt and hair. As you know, we all do. However, we are DOGPEOPLE. I have a friend at work with two wonderful large mellow affectionate Black Lab x Golden Retrievers. When she first got them they were in the house all the time. They have a kennel with dog houses in the yard for times when they are away. The female eats poop. The owners tried everything including Papaya (at the suggestion of Dr. Russ Howard), Meat Tenderizer, sneaking out when she wasn't looking and loading the poops up with Cayenne pepper (which didn't slow her down in the least) and training. She finally opted to keep the yard spotless and beat Hanna to the poop.

A few years later she had a baby and moved to a new house with a bigger yard. The dogs are not allowed in the house anymore and it happened bit by bit. As soon as the baby arrived the owner no longer had the time to roam through her large yard looking for poops. One day she didn't want to deal with dog dirt/hair on the floor where her baby crawls so she left them outside. And another day she didn't want Hanna's poopy dog breath licking her child's face and she left her out side. And it became part of the routine to NOT deal with dirt and poop breath, so the dogs are outside now and Hanna eats all the poop she wants, which grosses Cheryl-Lyn out and confirms her decision to leave her outside.

The point here is that though in our homes these things are minor irritants, in other homes they result in dogs being relinquished to life outdoors or abandoned to an animal shelter at the slightest provocation -- "we're moving" "she is getting old anyway" "yadda, yadda, yadda" and those dogs spiral down in behavior as the things that got them ostracized in the first place become worse.

My little Dharma is a poop eater. I figure that each of my dogs teaches me something that I can in turn teach to my students. I had little emphathy for others in this situation. Coprophagia is extremely disappointing. I love doggy kisses. I don't want doggy kisses from poop-eating mouths. So, perhaps we could tackle this as a group. You guys tell me what to do and I'll do it and let's see if we can fix it. I can then help Cheryl-Lyn and hopefully, get those dogs back in the house before they find an excuse to get rid of them.

Dharma's case history:

She began eating poop in her ex-pen while I was away at work. After a few days of this I noticed an increased interest in her poop outside. Shortly thereafter I noticed her pooping, sniffing and looking curious. Then she started to eat it. Now that the ground is covered with snow, she LOVES to dig up frozen poopsicles and carry them around like a prize and/or eat them. And my ten-year old husky was spotted carrying his own poopsicle the other day. For the very first time. She has graduated from eating only her poop to sampling the poop of other dogs. Sometimes, in the middle of the night when she goes out to go potty, she will potty and then make a bee-line for a pile of poop and begin eating enthusiastically. She ALWAYS remembers where she poops. And they have approx two full acres to run in among trees and brush.

Sometimes I wonder if she is hungry. Dr. Linda says she is the right weight, although she is leaner than most puppies. Dr. Linda says that most puppies are overweight. Dharma gets very grabby and excited when treats happen--frankly, she acts starved. She weighs 30 lbs, is growing like a weed. I just upped her food to three cups a day, plus training treats, plus the addition of a scrambled egg or 1/4 cup of meat to each meal.

I keep the yard picked up as much as I possibly can. I've even taken to scouting for poops in the dark. It is difficult and I don't find them all. It is dark when I leave in the morning and dark when I get home and if it has snowed, the poops are covered up.

I've tried sprinkling poops with tabasco. I've tried a commercial product called Deter. What do you all want me to do next? Spare no detail. I am at your service. Lisa

HERE ARE YOUR ANSWERS!!

First to answer - ANN-LUISE !!!!!

I wanted to address the question of the week. I don’t really have an answer, but I’ve been doing some research about the whole poop-eating thing. What a weird behavior. My dogs don’t eat poop in the summer, but are very happy with the special fudgsicles in the yard during the winter left by the stray cats. We had a student in class last month, who had 2 Chihuahuas and one of the dogs was absolutely obsessed with eating poop, that she (the dog) would practically salivate in anticipation while the other dog was going to the bathroom. I think about how humans can have addictions to things – food, alcohol, cigarettes, drugs...and I just wonder if a dog could just have an uncontrollable urge, or addiction (if you will) to the poop. Especially, when all the “remedies” don’t work. Also, wondered if anybody had ever tried to spray bitter apple on the poop to see if that would be a deterrent. What an odd thing to try to make poop taste bad – who would think??!!

AND WITHIN MINUTES, CATHYYYY!!!!

My understanding of this behavior is that it is pretty common, and that there is no "One sure-fire cure" for all poop eaters. It sounds to me Lisa, like you've done a lot of the right stuff already. The plan that I would put into action includes all of the things you are doing:

Sometimes this behavior is caused by a lack of something in the dog's diet. I doubt that is the case with Dharma. She is getting very nutritious food. And she has been to the doc (the right doc at that-- I certainly entrust Dr. Linda with the health of my dogs also.)

The next thing I would look into more in depth is finding a product of some sort that will not hurt her in anyway, but that she absolutely hates. You've tried "Deter". There must be other products out there. You might try Cayenne pepper or maybe Alum -- the stuff they make pickles with. There must be some products that you can give your dog to eat that makes their poop taste awful to them when it comes out, although I don't know how safe they are.

You could set up a booby trap for her on one or many of her poos like the old string around the penny can "tied" to the poop (if that's possible eeewwww). What works for bad behavior like jumping up could work for poop eating -- pay NOOOO attention to it. No wiping out her mouth, no "icky icky Dharma!", no following her around with the poop scoop, no nothing. That thing that she does at night by running out into the yard and getting poop sounds a lot like attention seeking behavior and the other dogs seeing Dharma get all the attention by doing that, may just be following suit -- doing what works. < I just love how she put this!

She doesn't strike me as a dog that is stressed, but I've read that stressors can be the cause of poop eating. And I'm sure you have it set up so that she has plenty of things to keep her occupied so she doesn't eat poop out of boredom.

The last thing is something that you are doing already -- managing it. Maybe try picking up the poop when the dogs are in the house, or maybe put them in the garage so they can't see you do it. And hope to God that she will outgrow it. I don't know if they do or not. - Cathy

My reply:
(I always write mine before I get yours.)

If you use Forbid, Deter, papaya, you must give adequate amounts of it to ALL the dogs, otherwise she will move on to "safe" poop in the yard.

If the source of her scavenging is hunger but you are happy with her weight, perhaps more "roughage" in her bowl: raw carrots, green beans, pumpkin, etc. Tomatoes & pineapple also work for poop eating as does ginger - grated fresh ginger or powdered. Bulk up her meals with more chewing and more empty calories. Feed more frequently. Use ginger cookies for dog treats.

If the act of scavenging is her pay off, perhaps feeding her meals in a Buster Cube? Doing a search and rescue for biscuits around the house after breakfast or dinner as a reward for coming in while you go scoop the yard. Darned herding breeds need SOMEthing to obsess about! *L*

Behaviorally, remember behavior you pay attention to gets rewarded. Don't let her see you rushing out to compete for the poop. I would condition in an alternative mutually exclusive behavior to scouting for poop. The INSTANT she "finishes" call, click and run her to the house for a special "dessert" (also addresses the hunger factor). You want pooping (or seeing someone else pooping) to become her cue to run for the kitchen for her after-poop goodie. Same with the sight of another dog's squatting. There are dogs who get so obsessed with the act of poop eating that they stalk behind the squatting dog to catch it before it hits the ground. (This is usually the result of some intense competition for poop from human or other dog.)

The problem is you have to be there every time she is alone in the yard. You have to be there every time there is poop in the yard. You have to be there if any other dog poops. "Being there" is paying attention to a lot of behavior, especially if you are silent unless she is engaging or about to engage in poop eating. And if she's alone for any length of time, she will practice the behavior. Management is miserable.

Muzzling is an option.

This is one of those moments where avoidance is the desired response and the most effective way to accomplish avoidance is through punishment ... however, with all punishment there is fall-out. Our Spinner was a horrid poop eater when we first got her. Forbid/Deter only worked as long as it was IN the food, but I was going broke buying it. I employed some long-line leash correction leave-its which successfully caused her to avoid poop (when I was present) ... but it also made a mess of house training for awhile. Enough booby trapped poop to convince her that ALL poop is "dangerous" and that it has nothing to do with you may be an answer. (And no, I am NOT going to come attach penny cans and mouse traps to husky poop or hold the e-collar remote.)

Most every book ever written says that the best way to deal with poop eating is to scoop religiously, potty the dog on leash, never give the dog access to poop. But what about the fact that rationing, creating a limited resource, increases the value of the resource ... John Rogerson (always one to come up with the most creative problem solving), once suggested at a seminar that if your dog is obsessed with eating horse poop that you feed him nothing but horse poop in his bowl for several days until the dog never wants to see poop again and is really glad to see real dog food in his bowl. Set down two bowls, one w/poop and one w/dog food and congratulate him for making the right choice. How's that for a suggestion you're not going to take? *L*

'Most' dogs grow out of it.

Can't wait to see what the rest come up with.

Have you asked the breeder if this is a common issue in the line and if so, what she does about it? I think there is often a hereditary component. She may or may not admit it.

AND LISA'S UPDATE - More to follow!

I am not sure why, but Ann-Luise's answer was comforting. I do think the frozen poopsicle angle is part of the puzzle. I also think that digging for treasures in the snow is part of the puzzle. And one day winter will be gone... it is very wrong for a musher to be looking forward to summer *sigh* It is also comforting to know that I am not alone. In fact, Julie at Play & Stay says that some dogs are so obsessed that if they don't hold the poo-eater back when another dog has pooped, it will roll in the remnants after they pick it up, but before they wash it away.

Dharma has shown no interest in poop at Play & Stay.

Cathy made several good points and it sounded like she took a test to be a certified trainer or something *S* Her bottom line, however, made me stop to think -- it is working for her. DOGS ALWAYS DO WHAT WORKS for them.

Breaking the behavior down into its component parts:

1. She is more frantic about it when she is "wound up" What is "wound up?" Some level of adrenalin. Stress causes adrenalin. The "puppy zooms" is a result of adrenalin. Competition for resources causes adrenalin. When she is over-tired she gets wound up (just like her mom, I might add). Inadequate structure and not knowing what is expected of her cause stress. Not knowing when I am going to get home/unpredictable routine causes stress. Hunger. Teething.

2. It started when she watched me clean her puppy pen. Within a few days she was cleaning her puppy pen.

3. She got a response from me for eating it.

4. She got the huskies interested in her "game" Wow! What power!

5. For a few days I think she was in a growing spurt and she was genuinely hungry. During that time, her poo-eating took a turn for the worse.

6. After all of the above it became a habit. It got her some attention. It relieved some stress and gave her something to focus on. When she is focused she is not having to deal with inadequate structure, unclear expectations, unpredictable routine.

SO, this is what I have done and today she was in the yard all day with the huskies and I do not smell any poo breath on any of the dogs. I will check in the morning when it is light to see if I can unravel the day.

1. I clean the yard as best as I can, including putting on a headlamp and scouting for poops in the dark.

2. I watch her when she goes outside to poo/potty and after she does I call her from the doorway. She comes like a rocket for a cookie. Thankfully, she prefers dog treats to poo. This was great for her recall training, BTW. She FLIES to the house for her treat.

3. And speaking of the recall, I noticed that if I am standing in the doorway when I call her she flies to the house. But, if I am in the yard somewhere, her recall is less dependable. *lightbulb* Her version of "Dharma! Come!" was contingent on me being in the doorway...

4. Last night I took treats into the yard as I scouted for poops. When she was not paying any attention to me I called her and treated when she got to me. I did not treat her if she showed up on her own. Why? Because I wanted her to try to figure out how to get me to say, "Dharma, come!" I wanted her brain to FOCUS on something other than beating me to the poops. If she found a pile I called her and she came. I then rewarded her for sitting calmly while I scooped the poop. My plan is to create a behavior pattern of calm nonchalance around the poops. This all occurred in the front yard.

5. The dogs stay in the back yard while I am gone. Last night I doused every poop in the back yard with Tabasco sauce and left them there. I think Pasha has lost interest in the poops. And, as I mentioned I don't think they ate any today. I am going to leave the spiced-up poops in the yard for the next snow to cover, in case they go digging again (digging is part of the addiction). That way if they find one and take a bite, it won't be so good. Hopefully.

I'll continue to keep you posted.