Q OF THE WEEK - Humping Kelsey!

Hi Carol,
I was just in your beginning social skills class for Cinders and I. I mentioned during our introduction that she used to have a Golden that she played really well with when we lived in California. I miss my friend and her dog. Of course we email and I have told her I am very impressed with your classes (also took the Attitude class with Lisa). She sent me this email:

"I have a question that maybe your Diamonds in the Ruff teacher could help me with. I have always noticed that dogs seem to hump Kelsey and can sometimes be more aggressive toward him than toward other dogs. The other day I took K to the vet for shots and when we came out into the parking lot a bitchy little dog tore after him. The owner had the dog on a leash so there was no contact, but she said she had no idea why it happened. I think K must be sending out messages that he is submissive and can be beaten up with little or no resistance. I wonder if there is any way I can teach K not to do whatever he does to provoke other dogs. I especially don't want K to get overly aggressive or get overly intimidated. Right now he seems to take whatever without much care."

Kelsey has always been very easy going and never provokes a fight or seems intimidated in any way. He does seem to get humped often. He also seems to accept it. The more aggressive attacks I did not see when we were in California with Kelsey. He is about 2 years old. She is in California and can't come with me to class. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you,
Karen

From Lisa:
This is an intriguing situation. I am anxious to hear Carol's answer, because I know she knows what the real deal is. The only thing I am certain about is that dogs do not see him as a submissive weinie they can beat up on. If we could see it on video tape we would know it all. I am wondering what his body language is.

If he were not getting humped all the time, I would say he was getting a charge out of provoking the other dogs, but I can't imagine a dog who provoked it would stand for a humping.

So, is there something hormonal going on? Lisa.

From Kim:
Okay. Gotta start with a question. When Kelsey is mounted by other dogs, where is he when it is happening? Is it part of their own "pack" or is it out playing in the dog park? If either, sory, but normal doggie behavior when in a "pack". As long as no one is getting hurt and he does not seem distressed by it, and enjoys playing with the other dogs, let him play. Dont interfere. The dogs know how to speak to one another and understand each other much better. We have a tendancy to mess it up.

If he does not seem to enjoy his play time, find another group of quieter, less roudy dogs to play with. But, Right now he seems to take whatever without much care." seems to say, he is okay with it.

The owner had the dog on a leash so there was no contact, but she said she had no idea why it happened. How MANY times have I heard a client say something like this when there dog is growling/snarling/biting. "I dont understand...he's never done that before!" Yeah, right. Anyway....this interaction is probably more a problem of the other dog, whether it be "barrier frustration", lack of socialization, or simply bossy-bratty behavior as a lack of leadership. Teaching Kelsey some of the TOR excercises of walking eye contact would be helpful. That way he will focus on mom instead of looking at the other dog.

Anyway, those are my thoughts for now. Kim

My Response:

Hi Karen-

While I have seen dogs who seemed to have a "kick me" sign on their backs, I'm not sure what the answer is as far as helping him send out better "vibes" to other dogs. (The accosting dog in the parking lot probably didn't take the time pick up his vibes at all, it was more likely a fly-by assault to the nearest four legged intruder.)

Without being there or seeing a video tape of an actual interaction it's hard to say what's really going on.

It probably is more a testament to the lack of social graces or previous bad experiences of the dogs he's encountered, than something about him. Other than perhaps he is soft enough to be bullied by alpha wannabes who probably couldn't kick sand in stronger dog's faces on the beach!

He is a Golden - and probably more Goldens rush uninvited into the personal space of other dogs than any other breed on the planet. My whippet Basil has a preconceived notion that ALL gold colored hairy types are going to slobber on him and prepares for the worst. Perhaps K is carrying that stigma with him, based on the other dogs' previous experiences with dogs of similar body style and activity level. (Kinda like seeing a kid in baggie pants and too large sports shirt coming across the parking lot when you're alone. *S*)

Humping is often status seeking, but is also a sign of arousal - over excited dogs do it. Girls do it to girls. Under dogs do it to each other. Dogs do it to babies with gamey diapers. Sometimes dogs with urinary tract infections or hormone imbalances will be attractive to potential humpers. Only the dogs know for sure - and I'll bet they don't know either. *S*

My advice to your friend would be to be his advocate. Body block any impolite approaches and choose his playmates carefully to minimize any bad experiences. And watch his reaction. If it's no big deal to him - it's no big deal. We don't have the number of dog parks up here that they do in California. But we do read articles on the pros and cons and the fall-out of bad experiences and potential problems of bullies in the park. I'd advise your friend to be choosey in the kind of kids she wants K hanging out with. *S*

-Carol

Her reply:

Thank you so much for your quick reply and information. I also did a little research and found this information which was interesting:
" Sometimes mounting ("humping") another dog is a sign of dominance, but not always; this often-misunderstood gesture can also be used by a lower-ranking dog to try to demonstrate his allegiance with a higher-ranking animal. Note that among dogs, the hierarchies are usually maintained and demonstrated very casually and almost always by more submissive members of the pack. Very high-ranking animals very seldom demonstrate their rank, unless they lack confidence. Most demonstrations and almost all fights that occur over rank are done by the middle-ranking or unconfident members."

Kelsey was/is always a very polite dog - Janet took him through all kinds of training and was definitely in control always. I think that is why Cinders was comfortable with him right away. In their play he was always dominant but she didn't seem to mind. Most of the dogs that I noticed humping him - specifically another friend's dog that sometimes walked with us - seem to be the blustery wannabes that also set Cinders off. Kelsey didn't seem to mind the humping - kind of took it in stride.

Follow-up from Lisa from the Belgian e-list:

Subject: Re: Protecting my elder dog from indignities and harm
Carol wrote:
> Yesterday AND today he was humped by other males, they were quickly
> pulled away but I do not want him subject to that. A 10 month old
> Great Dane even entertained the thought one day. Is he giving off old
> dog vibes? Some dogs just run across the field right to him and try to
> mount him. He has no choice but to sit as he cannot take the weight.

Reply: If it's mostly humping then it's not a matter of the other dogs trying to dominate him. It's a matter of the other dogs saying "wow, man, you're the most dominant thing around!" They don't feel confident around him, so they mount as a method of seeing if he's safe to play with.

It's hard to see through the filter of human experience but mounting in dogs is only sexual or reassurance. If you look at the males who mount other males, it's always the bottom-feeder types who do the mounting. The type that would be *horrified* if they were suddenly placed in a position of dominance over another dog. A male that is truly confident and dominant is never seen mounting other males (only bitches and only ones who might be in season).

As for discouraging other dogs, I read an idea on ClickTrain that might work. Carry a can of air freshener with you and as the other dog gets close, give it a generous squirt in the face. This idea was presented (by Kim Burrell) as a way to break up a fight because it forces both dogs to start sneezing. I'd bet that if you spray an oncoming dog, the sneezing will make him forget about your dog.

Other things I've tried that I know work are to place my hand over my dog's withers and shoulders, make direct eye contact with the oncoming dog and growl out "my dog! go away!" as low and menacing as possible.

I used to carry treats on my walks and would take a handful of treats and throw them right in the face of the oncoming dog. Small treats! The oncoming dog would stop, then sniff and start eating the treats, giving me a chance to move away. M. Shirley Chong

My comments:
Was there a flurry of posts asking "how safe is air freshener" to eyes & nasal passages "right in the face"? (maybe not, since it's Shirley *G*) I guess if I were the owner of the Dane pup nad it was "normal" pup communication, I'd be horrified at how it would affect him in future approaches to other dogs/ppl. Now if I were being accosted by a horrid loose dog on the street or breaking up a serious dog fight, I'd use it in a second.

Of course Turrid thinks even the citronella collar is "too harsh" as dogs have such a sensitive sense of smell that natural lemon scent is too negative. (btw the citronella collar ppl are now offering plain air refills for their collar.) I guess one of those cans of compressed air for dusting your computer would work if it's the hiss/blast startle, but it wouldn't cause sneezing. How old is the pup they are talking about - and I'm taking from Shirley's answer that this is while on walks and not free-play in a dog park or play time in a class situation? I usually think of "bottom feeder type" description as the Shiners of the world, not the Howard wannabe types ... It will be interested to hear the debate this post gets going!

Ruffians? Any comments?